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> Paint: what to use
Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 07:11 PM
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I have FOLKART acrylic paints which are waterbased with heavy pigmentation.
I planned to use them on my Pullip & Obitsu head.

I read on RequiemArt.com to use flat drying high pigmented acrylic, NOT to use any oil-based anything.
I also read MSC cannot be used over water-based hobby colors.

Do I have the wrong paint?
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CloakedSchemer
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 07:22 PM
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Folkart is a very...um...cheap brand from Wal-Mart and other stores. While it is fine for crafts like wood and indoor "country" items, it is not very good on dolls, as the color can bleed out into the vinyl and cause discoloration. The same is true for other brands like PLAID. I have not had good experience with Folkart on vinyl.

For my obitsus, I use Liquitex acrylics. I get them at Michael's craft store. They are a little more expensive, but I've had MUCH better results. And you can get sort of a "sampler" set for under $10, but it only includes basic colors and you will have to buy additional bottles for more realistic colors and skin tones. Not sure about the long-term affects, as I've only been in the hobby for about 3 years now, but so far, no bleeding from Liquitex paints!

For my resins, I use water color pencils and chalk pastels.

I'm sure others with more experience can add to this. :)
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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 07:40 PM
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Folkart is an acrylic and should be fine in terms of not damaging your dolls if it is the regular formulation (they make some specialty paints for glass and plastic that couldn't be guaranteed). However, it is a very low-quality paint and you are making it harder to get quality results. Trying to do detail work with cheap paints, frankly? sucks. It's false economy to cheap out on supplies as it will only cost you in frustration in the long run - as you have seen yourself, after using that Plaid sealant (Plaid and FolkArt are the same company, btw - this gives you an idea of the 'quality' you are dealing with).

What your want is a low-viscosity artists' acrylic, like Liquitex, and a maybe flow release agent to improve thinning and prevent the colour drying in your brush.

I think the best 'bang for the buck' for colouring dolls is quality dry pastel and watercolour pencils, because -unless you drop them on the floor and break them- they will last a lifetime. You can often buy them individually, and they are also great for drawing.

The 'word' is, no oil or solvent-based paint should ever be used on resin or other-plastic dolls - this includes markers.

MSC seems to work just fine on virtually every type of medium I have tried it on. The only concern one might have is the matte type cutting the shine on gloss or iridescent surfaces, but this is readily remedied by a touch-up with gloss over the MSC. It might be prone to 'running' if you soaked the surface in it, but that's not how MSC should be sprayed - just the lightest mist, then left to dry (the same as any spray paint should be used, really.)

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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 08:08 PM
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I actually got the FOLKART at Michael's asking assistance on finding acrylic paints that weren't oil-based.
I wasn't aiming for cheap...

Now I'm wondering if "LOEW CORNELL" Soft Pastels I have can't be used either...

Gods, I thought I had done my home-work rather well before purchasing all these things only to find out now that it was all a waste of money I can't really afford to waste...
I feel like crying...
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CloakedSchemer
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 08:14 PM
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awww....don't cry! This hobby is full of trials and error. Have you opened the paints yet? If not, you might be able to return them or exchange them.

And I've learned that employees at Michael's know next to NOTHING about the BJD hobby...at least in my area. They'd never even heard of Obitsu or anything similar. So....as bad as it is...I ended up asking for paint to use on Barbie dolls....since it was the closest thing to an Obitsu they knew about.....they also told me to use a really bad sealer....which, luckily I did test on a cheap Barbie first.

Just hang in there, the more experience you get, the more you'll learn and the better things will go. Don't give up! Even if you feel like it sometimes (we've all been there), you'll regret it if you do. After all, if I had quit the hobby after messing up Riven and Zaid, I never would have gotten my resin dolls, who are like children to me!
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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (CloakedSchemer @ Oct 11 2009, 08:14 PM)
awww....don't cry!  This hobby is full of trials and error.  Have you opened the paints yet?  If not, you might be able to return them or exchange them.

And I've learned that employees at Michael's know next to NOTHING about the BJD hobby...at least in my area.  They'd never even heard of Obitsu or anything similar.  So....as bad as it is...I ended up asking for paint to use on Barbie dolls....since it was the closest thing to an Obitsu they knew about.....they also told me to use a really bad sealer....which, luckily I did test on a cheap Barbie first.

Just hang in there, the more experience you get, the more you'll learn and the better things will go.  Don't give up!  Even if you feel like it sometimes (we've all been there), you'll regret it if you do.  After all, if I had quit the hobby after messing up Riven and Zaid, I never would have gotten my resin dolls, who are like children to me!

I've actually used them on my first Obitsu face-up attempt which turned up badly because of the sealer "PLAID Patricia Nimocks".

I wonder if there's any way I can sell them?
I'd like to salvage some cash out of this...

With only one of us working, you can imagine finding this out now is a BIG deal.
I feel awful I've wasted our meager funds on something I can't use...

Thank you for your advice & trying to comfort me!

PS Please tell me "LOEW CORNELL" Soft Pastels can be used..?
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CloakedSchemer
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 08:30 PM
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Ummm...I really don't know about those pastels, I don't have any experience with them. Hopefully someone can help with this?

I understand where you are coming from with the money issues...I've been there.

You might still be able to use them for something. I've used that brand to paint on clothing I've made for dolls. I wouldn't wash it, but it works as tshirt paint on something you aren't going to wash.

If you really want to get rid of it, maybe try selling it online? I'd still try to return it, even if you did open it. Explain that you were told it would work for your needs, but it didn't and even nearly damaged your project. They might do the exchange, but even if not, the worst they can say is "no". Good luck!
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kiki-chan78
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 08:34 PM
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Most pastels will be safe as long as they aren't oil based (and it sounds like you have the right kind). To get the most 'bang' out of my pastels, I use a tea ball and grind them into a fine powder which is kept in little plastic jars. Then I just apply them with a clean dry brush as needed.

Next, I'd suggest getting watercolor pencils. They are easier to control than most any wet-media. My two personal fave watercolor pencils are Derwent and Caran d'Ache.

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CloakedSchemer
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 08:46 PM
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oh, another word of advice: LISTEN TO KIKI!!!!! lol She is an AMAZING faceup artist, she just did a faceup on my DZ Yuu, Leander, he is GORGEOUS! I've seen her work, it is always awesome, this girl knows her stuff!
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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 09:12 PM
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In my experience, craft shop employees aren't the people to ask about art supplies (I used to run a craft store, btw - being the exception that proves the rule!). Given the hundreds of types of supplies Michael's carries, it's simply not reasonable to expect them to know about the specifics of niche hobbies. Their mark-ups are also very high (how else do you think they can regularly afford to clear stock off at an 80% discount?!) and you would probably save money if you could find an alternate source for supplies. I get mine online from OPUS; I've heard Dick Blick is also very good.

Loewe Cornell is an another 'cheap' brand of pastel - I used them in the Kraft Dinner days at art school and was not much impressed, I found them very hard and having a poor pigment load - I actually liked the uber-cheap Alphacolour line better, for the technique I was using at the time (not dolls!). As long as they aren't oil-based, they should be fine, but expect poor pigment concentration and a 'gritty' texture. Rembrandt, Schminke, or Sennelier are the brands of pastels I prefer - yes, they are expensive but you can usually buy them individually and cherry-pick the colours you want/need most. der Went is my favorite watercolour pencil (iirc, their 'light flesh' is a near-exact match for Obitsu Pale, too). I like Caran d'Ache for drawing but I find them slightly waxy and therefore have always been leery of using them on dolls.

A type of acrylic that works quite well on dolls and is less expensive is the Vallejo line of model colours - JunkySpot carried them for awhile, so you know they have to be good! I picked up a bottle of their white (white acrylic, by nature of the pigment, gumms up and dries out faster than any other and all mine were 'toast') a while back and it has served me very well. When (not 'if'! I *will* make this happen) I pick up the airbrush again I will probably invest in a set of their colours for air.
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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (kiki-chan78 @ Oct 11 2009, 08:34 PM)
Next, I'd suggest getting watercolor pencils. They are easier to control than most any wet-media. My two personal fave watercolor pencils are Derwent and Caran d'Ache.

<3

-Kiki-chan78.

But I read MSC cannot be used over water-based hobby colors and aren't watercolor pencils water-based?
*confused*
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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 10:14 PM
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So.. to sum it up:

- low viscosity artists' acrylic like Liquitex or Vallejo (model colors)
- watercolor pencils like Derwent or Caran d'Ache
- pastels like Rembrandt, Schminke or Sennelier
- sealer Mr. Super Clear UV cut flat

Anything else to add to the list?

NOTE:
- I tried searching for Liquitex on Michael's site but it's not listed. I found it on Ebay and OUCH! $6/7 a color is damn expensive!
- I'm assuming Vallejo are airbrush paints? Not sure I want to try that yet.
- Michael's has Derwent & Rembrandt listed but no price.
- Ebay has Derwent for $7 for 12colors (HOW do you use watercolor pencils??)
- Ebay has Rembrandt for $10 for 14 colors while Sennelier is $30 for 20 colors.

I was aiming for a cheaper solution (aka do my own face-ups) but it seems more expensive instead...
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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Tygra_Beaumont @ Oct 11 2009, 10:04 PM)
QUOTE (kiki-chan78 @ Oct 11 2009, 08:34 PM)
Next, I'd suggest getting watercolor pencils. They are easier to control than most any wet-media. My two personal fave watercolor pencils are Derwent and Caran d'Ache.

<3

-Kiki-chan78.

But I read MSC cannot be used over water-based hobby colors and aren't watercolor pencils water-based?
*confused*

::shrugs:: I have no idea where you got this information, nor the context within which it was presented. Either it refers to some water-based paint with which I am not familiar, or it is incorrect.

It would probably be a very bad (and dumb, imho) idea to try to use MSC over waterbased media while it was still wet but it's perfectly fine when dry - and waterbased media usually dries very quickly, even in regions with super-high humidity.

I have heard that the translation of the directives on the MSC tin also says it's not recommended for use on vinyl, but that hasn't stopped it from becoming a tried-and-true favorite among vinyl doll customizers.
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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (Tygra_Beaumont @ Oct 11 2009, 10:14 PM)
So.. to sum it up:

- low viscosity artists' acrylic like Liquitex or Vallejo (model colors)
- watercolor pencils like Derwent or Caran d'Ache
- pastels like Rembrandt, Schminke or Sennelier
- sealer Mr. Super Clear UV cut flat

Anything else to add to the list?
Where would I find them?
Will our wallet cry after purchasing all these..?
*deep sigh*

I was aiming for a cheaper solution (aka do my own face-ups) but it seems I've wasted money instead...

Hopefully not *too* badly, if you shop around and plan your purchases intelligently.

But doing faceups in order to 'save money' only works (maybe) if you're someone like me who already had a studio full of good quality chalk pastels and whackloads of watercolour pencils purchased years prior (they've been a favorite drawing media of mine for more than 25 years) and dozens of excellent detail brushes.

However, I just used doing faceups as an excuse to -you guessed it!- get more art supplies, because that is how I like to spend my 'fun' money <_< Also, as an academically-accredited artist with a decent CV, I am able to obtain government funding to purchase art supplies, so...I am well-stocked for almost any project (I wish the GNWT could foot the bill to wedge a few more hours in every day, so I could get more done :rolleyes:).

Doing face-ups is an investment in yourself, a way to get a unique, one of a kind doll that is totally your own, and a pleasant and fascinating way to spend leisure time, but I don't think the math could ever work out on 'saving money' unless you were able to get fast enough, and good enough at it 'go professional' and sell your work at a profit and still pay for top-quality materials.
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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 11 2009, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (tigerbaby @ Oct 11 2009, 10:34 PM)
Doing face-ups is an investment in yourself, a way to get a unique, one of a kind doll that is totally your own, and a pleasant and fascinating way to spend leisure time, but I don't think the math could ever work out on 'saving money'

I was aiming for a cheaper, original & fun solution (aka do my own face-ups) but it seems more expensive instead...

I have at least 2 projects at hand:
1) making my own Mamachapp (just waiting for the Obitsu head to arrive);
2) giving a "milder" look to my Mini Pullip "Little Principessa" (before attaching her head to her new Obitsu body)!
I was ONLY waiting for the sealer before working on them and now I finally find an online store based in the US with Mr. Super Clear on stock I also find out all this about colors...

At the prices they're sold I'm afraid my dollies will have to wait MONTHS before I have enough funds to buy the materials I need!
And I was only planning something small not complicated! Heck, I only got/need 5/6 acrylic colors!
(*wails*)
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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 12:23 AM
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oh, come on - the first place I looked, the Vallejo paints were only $3/bottle, individual soft pastels from Dick Blick are about the same, and they have the der Went pencils for $1.04 each! I am betting that is less than you paid at Michael's for those FolkArt paints - which will work, and won't damage your doll, but will make the process far more difficult than quality materials would; same with the Loewe pastels.

You don't need every colour in the line, just white, black, and the hues that you need for the project you have in mind. You also seem really 'stuck' on the idea of paints, and they are not the easiest thing to use - pastels are far easier to use for soft shading, and watercolour pencils work very well for fine detail; as well, you can 'lift' the colour off the point with a wet brush and use them as paints.

It is very possible if you gently buff away the existing faceup on your Pullip with a piece pulled from a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser, you can get the 'softening' effect you want without adding any colour whatsoever.

Art supplies are expensive...$7 is 'cheap like borscht' compared to some of the things I have stashed up in 'Area 51' (my studio). There's a reason I thot I was living high on the hog if I could make my Kraft Dinner with milk and butter when I was going to art school (fiesta day if I could has a tin of tuna to go with!) <_<
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kiki-chan78
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 01:38 AM
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Not to sound like a broken record... running a search is usually a good thing. There is a pre-researched list of materials sitting in the tips and tricks section. These are pretty much standard items in most face-up artists kits. It's almost *impossible* to go wrong with the items listed...

Resu sent this link to you before, and I'm giving it to you again.

LIST OF RECOMMENDED FACE-UP SUPPPLIES

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Victoria Victrix
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 01:48 AM
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NEVER ask the clerks at Michaels or Hobby Lobby about ANYTHING.

What you forget is that they are paid to keep the shelves full and tidy and help people get stuff from the back, and man the cash registers, and NOT to be experts, or even know anything about their section except where to find things. Most of them are only there because they needed a job. If one of their other job apps had called first, they would be asking "Would you like fries with that?"

The ladies at JoAnn and Hobby Lobby in the sewing sections actually do know their stuff, but not anyone else in the store.

Now about supplies. You can get by very nicely for now with a set of watercolor pencils, a VERY good hand-sharpener, the soft pastels you have and a can of MSC. Watercolor pencils can be used wet or dry, and are much, much easier to control than paint. You can get good watercolor pencils in the individual colors you need, or a set.

You get what you pay for in art supplies, and in the case of paint, pastel and pencil, what you are paying for is pigment. Higher price = more pigment (and no, NOTHING in Folk Art or Plaid is "high pigment"). With a higher pigment content, the color goes on smoother, there is no grainy look to it, and the faceup won't fade.
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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 06:07 AM
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The reason I seem "stuck" on paints is that I've used them before on paper & clay with good results.
They're something I know how to use, unlike watercolor pencils.

Btw HOW do you use watercolor pencils?
Are they used to draw & color eyes as well?
Would the color really stick to the surface and not just "slide" over it without leaving a mark?
I suppose using Faber-Castell watercolour pencils is not advisable either since the brand is not listed under Recommended list of materials, For face ups and otherwise?

I WAS planning to use pastels for soft shading such as blush & eyeshadow...

If I use FolkArt acrylic paints & Loewe pastels along with Mr. Super Clear, can the faceup really fade?
Will they bleed out into the vinyl and cause discoloration?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand and winding up confused instead.
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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 10:56 AM
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Watercolour pencils are an extraordinarily responsive medium, combining the best of pencils and paint (they also work very well just handled as an ordinary coloured pencil). You can use them dry, then add water to make them wet, wet the surface and 'paint' with the point, lift the colour off the point with a brush and use them as regular paint, correct mistakes with an eraser, and I have had good success blending and fading them when dry with a stiff dry brush or bit of Magic Eraser. The range of ways to use them is only limited by your imagination, and for practice, ordinary printer paper is a pretty good approximation of the surface of a doll properly sealed with MSC (only more absorbent).

I've never used Faber-Castell's watercolour pencils, but I have many of their ordinary coloured pencils in my tin and they are very nice - unless their quality has plummeted since the 80's (when the ones I do have were purchased) they should be fine.

The colour from the pencils adhere to the surface because of the 'tooth' left behind when you spray the doll with MSC. This is part of the reason you seal with MSC first, to prepare the surface, as well as to seal and protect from staining.

It is unlikely FolkArt or Loewe pastels will stain of bleed out - for one thing, they have so little pigment it's unlikely, also a proper seal with MSC should protect the doll and prevent bleeding. Expect instead issues with texture and difficulty getting a rich, smooth colour when you want it. I can't tell you about fading, but the UV-cut MSC may help some with that - but there are no guarantees. Part of the expense of quality art supplies is the investment in research and ingredients the companies that manufacture them put into guaranteeing their product is as consistent and archival as possible.

There's a reason why custom and pre-painted dolls are expensive, and part of that is the cost of good-quality materials. I've used the cheap crap (as a student, when I had no money and didn't know better) and I've used the very best that could be had, and -quess what?- you get what you pay for.

If you know your stuff, you can pick up the occasional 'gem' at a good price at a store like Michael's, but there is a reason they have not driven 'real' art-supply sellers out of business.
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leopardessmoon
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 01:58 PM
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I have the LC pastels.....I bought them before asking around so dont feel bad. they are ok but kinda cheep. the trick to useing them is to use a q-tip rubbed over the stick and then lightly on the doll, this is the only way I have managed to get any color to stick.

I use Prismacolor watercolor pencils, cause that is what was recomended by a commision artist I know. they work well. I got them at micheals for 40% off useing one of their weekly coupons that print on the reciept. they do this to get you to come back to the store the next week, You can save alot of money as long as you dont get tempted by other stuff while you are there!

Folkart paints are really the worst, try to take them back, tell them that they are very poor quality and almost destroyed your project. They should certainly give you at least an exchange. You should be able to get a few core colors in Liquitex that way (black, brown, white and pinkish flesh for lips should be the first for faceup work). I suggest getting an acrilic paint thinner, I use it to smooth the paint and it keeps it from looking blotchy and grainy like thining with water does. this one item keeps me from going insane with my "cheaper paints"

I tend to buy one paint or nice pastel every payday and slowly (like mollasis) build up my supplies.

Good Luck!

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tigerbaby
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (leopardessmoon @ Oct 12 2009, 01:58 PM)
I use Prismacolor watercolor pencils, cause that is what was recomended by a commision artist I know. they work well. I got them at micheals for 40% off useing one of their weekly coupons that print on the reciept. they do this to get you to come back to the store the next week, You can save alot of money as long as you dont get tempted by other stuff while you are there!

I'd watch it with those '40% off' coupons, always compare against a 'real art-supply' retailer before you use them. No retailer that offers those with every purchase would stay in business long if they offered a discount below cost everytime you bought something. What is far more likely is Michaels uses an 80% -or more!- markup on their landed costs and they are still making plenty of money when you use that discount.

I was -frankly- shocked when I first walked in a big Michael's in Winnipeg and found their prices for the identical item in our craft shop in Inuvik was the same price -and for some items, like fancy decorative embellishments, more! To give you an idea of the difference between the two regions, a liter of milk in Inuvik is about $8.99 - and the store makes no money on milk, it's kept deliberately low-priced to keep customers coming in - making no money on milk is preferable to tossing it out.

I'd also be very leery if all the paints were the same price - certain pigments, like cadmium and cobalt, are far more rare and make those colours much more expensive. If a retailer has paints marked at all the same price, you are probably paying far too much for the ones that use less-rare ingredients, like titanium or the earth-based pigments.
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Tygra_Beaumont
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 04:20 PM
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I've been using "ACCENT" Acrylic Paints for years on pretty much any surface.
My favourites are the "Crown Jewels" series which are double pigmented acrylic metallics
Does anyone know if they can be used for faceups?
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CloakedSchemer
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 04:40 PM
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Red is the only color of Folkart/Plaid that I had to bleed out---the others didn't bleed, just look sort of chunky.....

I had mixed red and white for my first Obitsu, Riven's, lips and the colors seperated after painting---he then had white chunky looking lips with a sort of "Kool-aid mustache" look around his mouth...It was not pretty.


Oh, and paint on paper is totally different than paint on a doll. I had been painting on pper, canvas, clay, etc for YEARS before I got Riven, and let me tell you---painting him was like nothing I'd ever done before! lol
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Resu
Posted: Oct 12 2009, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (tigerbaby @ Oct 12 2009, 10:56 AM)
you get what you pay for.

Nothing is more true than that. Seriously.

I used those Folk Art/Plaid acrylic paints on my first obitsu. The paint was incredibly hard to thin properly and generally full of suck when I had them. Why thin down the paints? Unless you want your lines to be chunky, you'd have to thin them down to get those nice, thin lines.

I tried Liquitex Heavy Body next, which was MUCH better than the Folk Art/Plaid, but still tough to thin. The difference that I noticed? Even watery, it was still easier to manipulate than the cheap acrylics.

Now, I use Liquitex Soft Body acrylics. MUCH MUCH easier to use. Easier to thin, paints on easy, and less of a headache. Seriously worth shelling out the money for if you're set on doing your own face-ups.

I have gone down your path before. Tried skimping on the paints and sealants. And I paid dearly for that.
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